Liam’s Daily…

There are currently 42 responses to “Cedu Documentary - I and Me and Summit Scripts”

1. 1 On June 20th, 2008, Heather said:

   OMG Liam!!! Where did you find this? I will never forget “perambulating bodies” and Friday Night at the Fights. WOAH.

   I actually used the term “perambulating bodies” in a very morbid poem I wrote post CEDU.

   I think it went something like this…..

   “The fears we hide deep inside, rots our souls, leading us to be perambulating bodies…. as cold and lifeless as death itself”

   It’s close enough to the original.. You get the point. I was about a year out of CEDU when I wrote this wonderful, loving, feel good bit. See! CEDU did work! I was really fucking happy after I graduated! YAY!!

2. 2 On June 20th, 2008, Heather said:

   One more thing….. What propheet or workshop did he have to write our own epitaphs stating all the reasons why were totally forgettable, terrible enough to be worthy of death, etc. I thought it was the I and Me.

   Smoochies

3. 3 On June 21st, 2008, Morgan Genser said:

   Seeing all of these scripts started to make my heart beat a hundred times. It brought back a lot of memories that I did not want to remember any more but need to deal with it. Liam I do not know where you got these from but I am glad you did.

4. 4 On June 21st, 2008, Laura said:

   WTF!?! Jesus Christ, this shit is terrifying. My heart goes out to everyone who had to live through this.

5. 5 On June 21st, 2008, David Steele said:

   This type of “workshop” is complete gibberish that will confuse and alienate young minds, rather than enlighten and nurture them. Like eating a pound of cotton candy for dinner, and calling it a meal.

6. 6 On June 21st, 2008, Liam said:

   Yes,

   It is, most certainly nonsense. But imagine being subjected to it, as the Cedu students were. That’s where it becomes rather diabolical. As a teen, sent to a place like this, you’re a ward. You can’t leave, the adults running the thing are the only authority figures in your world, and they claim to hold the keys to ultimate wisdom…

   So, you go through 2.5 years of this, hoping and praying and working (digging ditches, cleaning, scrubbing, floors and kitchens, and doing light and heavy fieldwork, which is the majority of their program), and waiting for the magic lesson to appear -

   And it ends with what you see above:

   “Get ready to slap your partner.” “Write your own epitaph.” “Tell people that you either kill them or allow them to live.”

   That’s the old 60s synanon model. It all that old, failed hippy-anti-establishment psychology.

   Slap, die, cry.

   “Now, a bathroom break. But first, we’re going to yell at you some more.”

   People pay money for this stuff to this day. You can find the programs all over that do it. People will ask you to join, sign up for their 400 dollar weekend ‘experience.’

   And I could care less, if you’re an adult, choosing to do it. But kids? People without any recourse? That’s where it’s bad business.

   But it was ‘good’ business, too. They made a lot of money doing it. And from some pretty famous people.

7. 7 On June 21st, 2008, Robert said:

   Liam, you struck gold with this. I’m very curious how you got it.
   It’s the equivalent of finding the Nazi’s Final Solution in all its documented glory so you can nail them all at Nuremburg.

   I also remember something about writing epitaphs right after the lifeboat phase, was that in another workshop/propheet or did they get rid of it?

8. 8 On June 21st, 2008, David Steele said:

   Liam,

   You are right. It is much more than gibberish. It is gibberish which obscures a strange authoritarian mentality designed to subjugate and debase kids under the guise of helping them.

9. 9 On June 21st, 2008, Liam said:

   Hi Rob,

   Well, it’s the sweat of investigative journalism. That is, a source kindly and generously donated these to the movie. (Thank you, kind source).

   Yes, I believe that ‘epitaph writing’ was part of the Summit, after the “tell your friends to die” segment.

   The Summit was a five-day bit of nonsense, complete with pointless humiliation, make-believe death, funeral and epitaph-writig/reading - by teenagers, captive teenagers enrolled in a rigidly-controlled limited social setting, in an isolated rural outpost.

   Sound appealing? These exercises were followed by dress-up in superhero outfits! And a trip to a suburban mall, to buy people food and get their phone numbers.

   Cult-training, anybody? (Or, if so, maybe Greenpeace is a cult?) Just kidding. Sort of.

   I’ve been told the Summit format was bought outright from another “large group awareness training” network. Maybe somebody can chime in with that history? There’s enough that’s out on the web to dig up some leads, for the curious.

10. 10 On June 22nd, 2008, Robert said:

    I showed this to my wife and she bookmarked it. She’s going to read it in depth later. Once you’ve already given a bit of an intro to a friend or loved one about the sordid history of Cedu,RMA,etc. then have them read this script and it gives a better insight into the madness of tortured kids and what we really went through.
    I guess those parts of the I & ME and Summit blend together for me. In that hazy section of my mind I always remembered it as after the Lifeboat part, we were told that their boat capsized and they died, so we were all together in death anyway, then we had to write epitaphs and memorialize ourselves. Sick sick shit.
    The fact that people would pay to subject themselves to that blows my mind. They must really have buyers remorse afterwards. I can’t imagine that without the constant 24 hour Cedu environment leading up to and following the workshop/propheets that they would be brainwashed to see the utility of any of it.

11. 11 On June 24th, 2008, Morgan Genser said:

    Liam,

    If I could give you a pulitzer for finding this material I would

12. 12 On June 24th, 2008, Liam said:

    Hi Morgan,

    Well, I’ll bet there are piles of these journals lying around, at the bottom of bookshelves, in boxes, in the houses of former staff, and perhaps some students who got a hold of one or two. Somebody should put out a request to the general (or Cedu-specific) public, to submit these for historical purposes. To create a record of the program, and that particular time and place…

    How you doing with seeing these things?

13. 13 On June 25th, 2008, Liam said:

    House Approves Legislation to Stop Child Abuse in Teen Residential Programs

    Bill Would Help Ensure Parents Have Information They Need to Keep their Children Safe

    WASHINGTON, D.C. – The U.S. House of Representatives today approved bipartisan legislation to protect teenagers attending residential programs from physical, mental, and sexual abuse and to prevent deceptive marketing practices by operators of residential programs for teens.

    Investigations by the Government Accountability Office have uncovered thousands of cases and allegations of child abuse in recent years at teen residential programs across the country, including therapeutic boarding schools, boot camps, wilderness camps, and behavior modification facilities. Currently, these programs are governed only by a weak patchwork of state and federal standards. The GAO has found major gaps in the licensing and oversight of residential programs – some of which are exempt from state licensing standards altogether.

    The Stop Child Abuse in Residential Programs for Teens Act of 2008 (H.R. 6358), which the House passed by an overwhelming bipartisan vote of 318 to 103, would establish minimum standards for preventing child abuse and neglect at teen residential programs. It would require the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services to investigate complaints of child abuse and neglect at residential programs and to issue penalties against programs that violate the new standards. The bill calls for states, within three years, to take on the responsibility of setting and enforcing standards for youth residential programs.

    The legislation would also help ensure that parents have the information about teen residential programs that they need to make safer choices for their children.

    “In far too many cases, the very people entrusted with the safety, health, and welfare of these children are the ones who violate that trust in some of the worst ways imaginable,” said U.S. Rep. George Miller (D-CA), the chairman of the Committee, and one of the bill’s authors. “We have a responsibility to keep kids safe no matter what setting they are in. With today’s vote, the House has made it clear that these abuses have gone on for far too long and they won’t be tolerated anymore.”

    “It is absolutely crucial that we keep children safe when they are in these facilities by setting minimum safety standards, and stopping residential programs from using the kind of deceptive marketing that have drawn in so many parents.,” said U.S. Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY), the chairwoman of the House Subcommittee on Healthy Families and Communities and the co-author of this legislation.”

    The GAO’s investigation revealed that teen residential programs may be using deceptive marketing practices and questionable tactics to lure vulnerable parents desperate to find help for their children.

    Among other things, H.R. 6358 would create a toll-free national hotline for individuals to report cases of abuse at residential programs and a website with information about substantiated cases of abuse and any child fatalities at residential programs. The bill would require programs to provide children with adequate food, water, and medical care. And to prevent deceptive marketing practices and create transparency to help parents make safer choices for their children, it would require, among other things, that programs inform parents of their staff members’ qualifications, roles, and responsibilities.

    It is estimated that tens of thousands of U.S. teenagers attend residential programs each year.

    More information on today’s legislation and past GAO investigations:
    http://edlabor.house.gov/issues/residentialprograms.shtml

14. 14 On June 26th, 2008, Liam said:

    Received in comments anonymously:

    “Can you please tell me any info about a staff person who worked at CEDU? Her name was Pam Abell. I worked with her at another job and was a bit concerned about somethings so I started googling her and see she is mentioned on your site and some other sites. THANKS.”

15. 15 On June 26th, 2008, Heather said:

    Someone wants to know about Pam Abell?! I’m interested in knowing what the anonymous was worried about.

    Can you imagine someone like Pam or Rudy working for a program that is NOT F-ed up and them trying to bring in the F-ed upness… or… just doing it naturally because they are sooooooo indoctrinated themselves that they can’t help it.

    Woah.

16. 16 On June 29th, 2008, Robert said:

    I know Pam messed with some people and had some power trip streaks, but she always seemed more genuine to me and like she actually cared. She had her favorites to be fair, but she wasn’t cruel to the usual suspects and non-favorites during our era there. Did that change? I’d like to hear about some different perspectives on Pam that I didn’t see.

17. 17 On June 29th, 2008, Liam said:

    Hi Robert,

    In interviewing former students, there was no major staff member, including Pam Abell, who wasn’t the bane of somebody’s existence. I was told by a few that Pam was their greatest fear and nemesis at the place. I would offer that she worked there for some time, and was very very intense in her rap style, in yelling, screaming, and getting under the skin and into the personal lives of students.

    Why she participated so enthusiastically in the Cedu program, and whether she meant well, or not, is hers to defend. I would welcome her comments here, and would be interested in hearing her current analysis of the Cedu program.

    She is listed as working at Cal State San Bernardino, at present. See if you can contact her and invite her to respond, or to interview for the documentary.

18. 18 On June 30th, 2008, Laine Justice said:

    Hi…
    These are very sad accounts that made my stomach turn as a read them because I remember them all too clearly, but I suppose as with anything that is that painful, there is so much of these ‘workshops’ that my mind as blanked out, for a good reason.

    I began to compile all tools and phrases about two years ago, and to my surprise each child or friend whom I spoke with remembered something different, each with an item or tool or experience that they had completely and totally, subconsiously erased from their memory.

    Unfortunately I abandoned the endeavor because it was much too painful.

    But I do remember in response to the people wondering about the epitahs that they happened in the summit.

    The i and me was the towel stuffed in your mouth for ‘the fight of me’s life’ and being layed down on a matress that you had to beat on to ‘break down the door to me’.

    Yes a workshop that taught frightend kids how to be bipolar.

    The summit had the life boat, where we virtually cast die votes to kill our best friends, and then we were ‘buried’. I found this funeral notice that I had written for myself two to three years ago in an old green notebook where all those writing assignments and summit excercises were written down. It broke my heart, that at 14, I was taught to think of myself as a worthless ungrateful, human?, who deserved nothing, not even my own dignity. I remember lieing on the ground, covered and ‘buried’ and how miserable that day was.

    This also included the ‘dress up excercise’ or ‘the stretch’ where I was forced to dress up like Dorothy in the Land of Oz and sing somewhere over the rainbow for two days straight. I held on to one thing. I knew I was supposed to say ‘my home is in my heart’ and they would stop. I held out for two days before I gave in. I suppose I was luckier than the people that where told they were spinless instead of hopeless like me. They lost their privledge to move their own body and where dragged around the room for days until they admitted what ever it was Raggedy Anne was supposed to realize (lets hope they they were read that story as kids).

    To Liam…This is amazing that you found this. I tried to get my personal records and they are on lockdown in some faciluty in Bonners Ferry. Im sure they are burned by now- To have found this document is increadible, because alot of these expereinces are so hard to prove.

    I still to this day have hard time convincing my parents of the brutal emotional abuse that went on there, and even have one parent that is Still, a firm beliver in CEDU.

    Keep up the good work!

19. 19 On July 2nd, 2008, Stina said:

    This is unbelievable…and really, they should have used a spell check. There’s some stuff that’s been left out. But I wanted to say that I was sort of coerced into doing the Summit (in the form of Lifespring) after I graduated RMA. My parents (dad) thought it might do me some good…mostly I remember mocking the facilitators because I knew exactly what they were going to do next. And yet, it was a little less than a year after graduation and I ended up getting sucked in. And emotional. The whole “you live, you die” lifeboat shit hurt me because these fuckers didn’t even know me (hurt me the first time too, what is that shit??? I remember getting so fucking emotional really thinking, christ, I have to say goodbye to everyone i love). And the one positive was that my stretch was Cinderella and the way they ended the workshop was bringing in someone who was close to you (which actually could have ended up really badly) but my dad came, who I’d always had a really explosive relationship with except for when I was young, and we had a slow dance, with me as his little girl, his princess. So he and I had a nice moment. Thanks Lifesprings. But these scripts, christ.

20. 20 On July 2nd, 2008, Stina said:

    “I suppose I was luckier than the people that where told they were spinless instead of hopeless like me. They lost their privledge to move their own body and where dragged around the room for days until they admitted what ever it was Raggedy Anne was supposed to realize.”

    holy FUCK. REALLY???

21. 21 On July 3rd, 2008, von said:

    Liam,

    Good to read that the project is still moving forward, as to what I just read of the I and Me and Summit, fucked up shit. I am glad I left when i did. I still feel if I had not gone to Cedu I would be in jail or dead. I just read through my twenty- one day survival journal and it brought back a lot of memories. Do you know where Jim Johnson is?

    Can’t wait to see the documentary, and Morgan do you remember me?

    Von

22. 22 On July 8th, 2008, Ian said:

    Liam, I do not know who you are, but you are an absolute GENIUS!!!! Finding this site has given me much relief already. I went to cedu from 92-94. I was 15 then. Still at 31 yrs. old now I have nightmares that I am back there and am trying so desperately to break out and get back to my wife at home in the dream. It is horrible. To the last poster, Laine you are dead on. It is next to impossible to convince my parents of the utter humiliation and senseless BS we had to endure there. I actually was kicked out in April 94′ and went to RMA for an additonal 10 weeks before my hard time at the western torture system ended. I only got up to the Values propheet. Thank god I did not have to endure any more beyond that. I am firmly convinced that as we all get older we become much wiser. In doing so, those of us who had to endure the hell on earth that CEDU put us through in my opinion should be able to have some form of recourse and revenge. Can’t sue as far as I know because they are closed bankrupted etc.. and have been since ‘05. Wish there was something. Anyways I feel honored to be able to share on this board/post and thanks so much Liam. I will now bookmark this site!

23. 23 On July 9th, 2008, Liam said:

    Laine, Ian, Stina,

    thanks for the wonderful posts. Let me know if you want to interview or talk further. (post a response, or send me an email).

    Von,

    Good to hear from you again, too. I think we talked earlier this year by phone. Glad you are well, enjoyed talking when we did.

    To your comments - Can I get you to give a few details? You left the school after about a year or so. Can you give some details as to why?

    I would tend to agree, that a shorter stay, under 12 months, at the school was far less damaging that the complete 2.5 years, because of both the length of isolation, and the experiences students underwent in the ‘upper school.’

    I think it’s important to give details, when we talk about what was helpful or hurtful. One of the most grotesque experiences students have described was in the “I Want to Live Propheet” (an overnight, mandatory, no-refusing 24-hour ‘experience’ at the school - one of 9 similar experiences).

    The practice was that of having students kneel on the ground, but requiring them to try stand, while their peers, and the staff members pushed on their backs, and yanked and kicked their arms and legs out from under them, knocking them back to the ground. This was repeated over and over, many times for each and every student in the room. All students had to participate in doing this to their friends.

    This was one of the more egregious and offensive ‘experiences,’ but not by much.

    To your point, I think, in my estimation, the highly rigid peer structure and constant emotional purging that was done at the school, might have, in a smaller dose, been more useful. Can you give some detail as to what helped you?

    I also have observed in taking interviews that anything past a small dose of the Cedu program tended to be regarded negatively. The regular program can be described as 2.5 years of many-times-per-week psychological/emotional purging / being screamed at / screaming [the Raps], coupled with the paranoia and constant fear of punishment and being turned in for breaking ‘rules’, and then added to the regular experience of events described above. This is regarded by the interviewees thus far as a never-fail, unbeatable recipe for Post-Traumatic-Stress Disorder.

24. 24 On July 9th, 2008, Ian said:

    Liam, I would be happy to talk further or to do an interview. A phone interview would be best for me due to extreme airfares and such. I have indeed been waiting for the day where I could enunciate my feelings towards the pure hell I experienced back at Cedu. If you could give me your contact info that would be great as I could not find your email on the site. I do not want to leave my personal contact info on this post but would rather communicate via email personally so that we could establish a contact point for both of us to talk. Thanks again,

    Ian

25. 25 On July 18th, 2008, jason said:

    It has been 31 years since I answered an ad in an experiential educators journal to come work as an Outward Bound instructor under dan earle at CEDU. It was an incredibly bizarre experience and after 6 months, I (like so many of the students) ran away never looking back but every once and a while remembering back and thinking…that was one weird gig. It was odd to find oneself getting sucked into the power and delusional fantasy of the place. I was there when the 5 day workshop was first being developed. As I recall Mel and his son had done a LifeSpring training and a few months later they did a rip off of it with some new ideas they threw into the mix. All the staff with seniority were given the first session (THEY MAY BE GIANTS! may have been the theme) and afterwards all the participants went around demanding nothing less than perfection from all those under them. (boy was that obnoxious) Then about a month later, it was our turn. The script you have uncovered must be a later iteration from what we experienced. I remember Mel’s daughter Stacy was in our group. The session was held at Mel’s beautiful home on the cliff overlooking the valley.
    It was the only time I was ever inside except to run a student cleaning crew through before one of their big parties.

    I remember the last day, going to the mall to do a “Stretch”. Because I was rather religious in nature, I remember being told to bring a cross to the final day and fashioning one that was so large that it disrupted several of the activities and finally they had to put it outside.

    I think the junior staff were treated much like the students. They would say things like, “It is no accident that you are here. You need to do this inner work too and you were drawn here by your psyche’s needs.” Maybe so. Maybe not. Anyway I went on a previously planned vacation after 6 months, and called in to Dan and said I have had enough. I never went back. I do think most of the junior staff were incredibly well intentioned. The senior staff; Mel, Dan, Greg, Michael, John P. all seemed to have an all consuming grand vision of where it could all end up and although they were well meaning, clearly there was a deep brutality to the process. They sincerely thought that without the program, the kids would end up back on the street with a needle in their arm.

26. 26 On July 24th, 2008, LC said:

    Thanks for posting the scripts. I graduated from RMA in 2000, and since then I’ve evaded questions about my high school years. Like anyone else who posted here, I have ambivalent feelings about this curriculum. The term “emotional growth” makes me cringe, then gag a little. I haven’t been able to look over any old propheet journals because I’ve been ashamed that I was there. Ashamed that my parents acted crazy and sent me there without a good reason. And to complicate things, I was ashamed that my relationship with my family had vastly improved after going to RMA, in spite of all this anger.

    I left, fueled by an ambition to make up for what I considered lost time. I became more competitive than I’d ever been. I felt an acute sense of scarcity, like I’d missed countless opportunities while digging stumps in the Idaho Panhandle. I felt deprived of an education, but I wasn’t abused.

    If the worst thing that ever happens in your life is that a grown-up tells you to punch a pillow or takes you on a guided meditation, then you might consider appreciating your lot in life. Somebody gave a shit about you, so much of a shit about you that they sent off for the brochures and paid through the nose for you to “grow emotionally” and have a better .

    It was wishful thinking on the part of the parents. And being at RMA was absurd most of the time. I can’t speak for Ascent because I didn’t go, but I would venture a guess that not one of you, once you hit RMA or BCA or CEDU, were physically harmed, placed in solitary confinement, waterboarded or starved. Yet here you are, banding together as abuse victims.

    The scripts appear totally innocuous in the context of all these posts. The concepts are illustrated in bizarre ways, but they’re obvious: “Love Yourself.” “Live in the Present.” “Don’t be a walking corpse.” “Take charge of your life.” “Hugging is good.”

    Hallmark card material. Good advice, even.

    Occasionally I google “RMA” out of curiosity. I am nostalgic and bitter and weirded-out by the subject, and I wonder if other people feel that way. This is the first time I’ve ever posted on a CEDU-related thing. It raised my hackles to stumble into a raging pity party.

    Now that that’s over with–I’ve heard that another former student (went to RMA, now lives in NYC) is making a documentary about the CEDU experience also. But I could put you in touch if you’re interested. Good luck.

27. 27 On July 27th, 2008, Robert said:

    Liam, who hosts this site, is part of that documentary you’re talking about.

    I understand to some degree what you’re saying about the timidness of your time at RMA compared to what you may have heard railed about. My experience at Cedu wasn’t as extreme as some stories you may hear, but I’m in the minority and I witnessed some pretty harsh things done towards my friends. You shouldn’t discount everyone’s life experience because it doesn’t vibe with what you remember. (Besides, knowing the average survivor timeline, you might not quite have full recall yet of everything you witnessed there.)
    Also, I like some of the people here, went to Cedu in the late 80’s to early 90’s, a way different era in the Cedu/Brown schools program. There was less oversight and regulation then there was post-2000. By your time, a lot of whistleblowing had gone on and there were regular visits by school accreditors, government social workers, etc.
    They made subtle changes to the program and brought in real psychologists. A lot of the psycho staff had moved on.
    You still have a lot of reading to catch up on. Start here:
    http://fornits.com/smf/index.php?board=11.0

    There are some true horror stories on Fornits, once you’ve seen all you can with the Cedu boards, take a glance at the dozens of other boards representing other programs. Medusa keeps growing more snake heads.

28. 28 On July 27th, 2008, Heather said:

    Hear Hear Robert!!

    I have actually been studying this “pattern”…. of the “CEDU eras… and mine was one of the worst by far. There is a ebb and wane of power that reconstructs the abusive nature that I GREW TO KNOW… Like I’m pretty sure you did.

    The late 80’s-early 90’s was one of the top periods…. Aren’t we the lucky ones.

    Aren’t we lucky….. I “love” myself. Geez, my rockbottom is beautiful and courageous (or should I kill myself because nobody wanted me and I’m not important and I deserved to get raped because I’m a whore and asked for it?!?!) I’m confused by CEDU’s message to me… hmm.

    Pondering away….

29. 29 On July 31st, 2008, Robert said:

    Liam,
    These images you posted really brought back a lot of memories for me. I usually don’t post on message boards, and I usually try to block out all memories of Cedu, but this really brought me back. So, I thought I’d share some of my experience.

    I first was sent to Cedu in 1991. I was 13 years old then, and they told me I was one of the youngest, if not the youngest to ever go there. It was terrifying for me. After 6 months of being there, the middle school opened and I with two other students were the first ones to be part of the experiment. I remember their names, Jenny and Laurence.

    They put me on bans from the high school for some crazy reason. So the friends I had made in my first six months, I was no longer able to talk to. Steve ran the middle school. He lived on campus, I don’t remember his last name. He was sort of a hillbilly asshole.

    The middle school was a mess. Nothing was organized, it seemed like they didn’t know what they were doing. It was like a toned down version of the high school. I really wish I remembered more so I could share it. I just never talk or think about it so the memories aren’t very fresh.

    After six months of the middle school, they convinced my parents that I needed to go back to the high school, but I couldn’t join my old peer group, I had to start fresh with a new one. That meant 2 1/2 years more of the crap.

    My peer group was the last to get the full onslaught of Rudy Bentz. It would be the last I & Me and Summit he would facilitate. Lucky me. From what I hear, things got a little easier there after he was gone.

    I really liked the people I met there. But I was so young and so easily brainwashed. I don’t know at what point you either start believing what they tell you, or you just realize that it’s much easier to play their game, but I became one of their robots. I took my friends to raps, copped dirt on my friends, and even admitted to stuff that wasn’t true. I wish I hadn’t. I tried to be myself, and not fall into the whole game. I tried to be honest. I tried to be strong and I thought I was. I really think the strongest people were the ones who ran away, or got kicked out. I don’t know.

    I graduated in 1994

    I wasn’t ready for the real world when I got out of there. I hadn’t experienced real high school, I hadn’t really ever been to middle school. I was set up for failure, and that’s exactly what I did.

    After two years of being away from there, my parents sent me to Hill top. I was still underage, so I had no say. Russ Decker and Guy Banano were working there at the time. I was able to pick up the game as if I had never left. It was weird. I ran away from there after 3 weeks. I was then sent to SUSE, in Idaho for a 3 week wilderness trip. Maybe that fixed me. Maybe I just grew up.

    I do have a lot more to say. But it feels weird talking about all this. I haven’t ever spoken to anyone about any of my experiences. I destroyed everything that I had from there so I wouldn’t have to recall any of it.

    I do wish I kept in touch with some of my friends, but even that sometimes feels like it might be too painful.

    God I hate that place.

    I do like what you are doing and I would love to see the documentary.

    Thanks for at the very least giving me this opportunity to get at least some of this stuff off my chest.

    Robert

30. 30 On August 3rd, 2008, Liam said:

    Thank you, Robert for the excellent history. Interesting that you were there for the end of that particular era.

    Drop me an email if you’d like to talk further,

    bests,

    LS

31. 31 On August 3rd, 2008, Heather said:

    OMG!!! ROBERT! I remember you!!!

    Didn’t you have couch restriction all the time?! (under the library stairs?)

32. 32 On August 7th, 2008, Ian said:

    In response to what LC said, you might want to be a tad more careful in your generalization of Cedu and such. Some staff I think were somewhat inclined to attempt to help out the kids. On the other hand, the majority during my “career” at Cedu were no better than Hitlers brigade! Remember now that if all those who have and will post on this and various other boards had had a wonderful glorious time in the western torture system as I like to call it then there would be nothing but good things to say correct? Hence, this is not a raging pity party but rather a recollection of thoughts from those of us who had a horrible life experience at these schools. In no way do I mean you any disrespect because your thoughts and opinions are valued just as much as any one else’s. One common thing I hear over and over is that people still years later have nightmares of these institutions, (myself being one). That aone says that something very wrong had been under way in as far as the methods of operation of the schools.

    To Robert, are you Robbie S. [NOTE - Last name deleted, no last names of other students, please] If so post again soon I would love to talk to you sometime brother. It’s me Ian Z. I was at Cedu from 92-94 so I think it’s you. If not my apologies. Well all, have a good one…

33. 33 On August 7th, 2008, Heather said:

    A thought about LC and Ian’s postings.

    What I have noticed is that there is a trend. Perhaps staffing in different time periods of CEDU? Perhaps different year long periods?

    LC was at RMA in the 2000’s when states started forcing some sort of accreditation (which is crap because the accreditation organizations are from the inside anyway)…. but anyway… the programs were simmered down quite a bit by then…

    Me… being a student of the 80′-90’s… I know what abuse was done. I was THERE FOR IT…. As you Ian… and many others that have complaints, night sweats/terrors, and constant family troubles from something that was supposed to “fix” it. LC just doesn’t know… she doesn’t know, like many others that attended CEDU towards the end because CEDU had a fire under it’s ass. It was finally being held accountable (IE: the rampant law suits and everything else that finally made them declare bankruptcy)

    Everybody’s experience is valid here….. and I agree Ian…that there are way too many of “us” to have “us” be considered a “bitch-fest”.

    And can we all say and cheer that if someone went through an era of a CEDU school that didn’t F them up that we are happy that they didn’t have to suffer as we did?!

    Yes. Of course.

    But we know what we endured… and yes, 20 years later… it is even more painful than it was back then.

34. 34 On August 10th, 2008, Ian said:

    Indeed! Well said Heather. I couldn’t agree more. Note to the moderator; my apologies for the use of a last name.
    Does anyone know whether or not there is any form of class action suit currently on-going pertaining to CEDU or the Brown Schools? I would really like to know. Thanks…
    If I had to give CEDU any positive feedback it would simply be that it enhanced my work ethic to a further degree than before I attended. I am sure others may disagree and that it absolutely fine. Personally though when I am at work and on ocassion I think back to CEDU I sometimes put in a little extra remembering those days of making our beds so taught you could bounce a quarter off them, dusting, and those infamous 5-minute showers due to CEDU’s limited water supply or so they said. Things like that we should all look back and laugh at due to their shear lunacy. My personal “favorite” was having to be escorted up to the dorms at night. What a flippin, joke that was! What did they think, that would be the only time a student would try and make a run for it?
    The greatest rouse of all is telling folks who have never even heard of CEDU of all the insane rules and regulations they imposed upon us. Most people say, “Yeah right you’re full of it.” I tell them I could write a novel alone on all the rules there were.
    Well that’s all for now. God bless all of you and good night…

35. 35 On August 19th, 2008, Michelle said:

    I just stumbled on to this site b/c I was trying to get pictures of the CEDU Website to show a colleague the school. I have been asked to participate in an essay contest based on philosophies and was writing one about unlimited human potential and challenging spirit. I actually base the entire essay on my fulltime. The cruelty of the whole process still gives me shivers, but will admit that making it out alive has made me see how important challenge and pride is. I can’t believe you found those scripts. To think back… and Morgan was a peer group behind me… all the bad press about CEDU being a cult is finally coming out. Too bad our parents didn’t believe us then. Thanks for listening. Michelle

36. 36 On August 19th, 2008, Liam said:

    Hi Michelle,

    Glad to be of help! Please use the pictures, of course.

    I was reviewing writing assignments from a fulltime journal the other day. No wonder we were terrified of the fulltime. The assignments were brutally invasive, directing us as adolescents to reveal every detail of our sexual and personal histories, and then to carry these stories vocally into the nearly-public group ‘rap’ therapies, and then onto the ‘floor’ in the nighttime, when we would further regurgitate these painful histories.

    Even more insidious in the writing assignments was the direction to students to reveal what was “true” and what was a “lie.” It was clear by the construction of these assignments that what was “true” was anything that Cedu staff wanted us to think, say or say we believed (or actually believe); anything that was “false” was anything that we actually felt - like “I want to run away, I want to listen to music, I want to see my friends, I want to talk to my family.”

    The fulltime journal! My goodness, they really took us to pieces.

37. 37 On August 20th, 2008, von said:

    Michelle,
    are you the same michelle that was in my peer group?

    von

38. 38 On August 21st, 2008, Larry said:

    I was at RMA just over two years from ‘84-’86. I am forty years old and this past week I had the nightmare. I am being placed back into the facility and just can’t talk my way out of it. I have felt intense anxiety since the very first day in Idaho. While my teen truancy and drug abuse did come to an abrupt end for the period I was there, I have struggled with a subsequent lifetime of shame and self doubt, sensations intensified by the morbid and distorted glare of self awareness I developed in the woods. Does everyone see in me what I see in myself?

    I notice that many of the staff members remained for decades after I left. Little wonder that. For years I have struggled to maintain in a world that requires things I left in Idaho. And, despite the impairment, I have managed some successes; all the while the ambiguous shame in my heart and the distracting noise in my head. I am exhausted from the effort. The names I read on the sites that led me here, the staff that stayed for decades… they never even tried.

    I have a wife who accepts everything I am. I have an infant daughter who has already melted my heart and changed me. And hearing some of your stories and reading that God forsaken transcript has, even now, helped. Write your books and film your movies. You will have at least one customer.

39. 39 On August 22nd, 2008, Jessica said:

    Liam,

    I am in a slight state of shock currently, so this post may be a bit rambling. Apologies in advance. I can’t tell you how strange it is to see the scripts. I can still here the words, the tones of voice, whispers in your ear, trying to personify how horrible you were/are because of your actions, the pillow pounding…good god.

    I have tried very hard since I left NWA (I was there from 02-03) to forget and move on. It has been impossible certainly - my parents still believe that program is the only reason I’m still alive. Of course, I can’t seem to make it to that realm of catostrophic thinking. I happen to believe that it is a miracle I didn’t commit suicide while/because I was there.

    I would love to talk further with you. If possible, please contact me via email. I would like to know about the documentary you are conducting as well as what other information you’ve recovered from the programs.

    Thanks in advance,

    Jessica

40. 40 On August 22nd, 2008, Liam said:

    Hi Jessica, I’m responding by email.

    Larry - your story is terrible and hopeful and moving; I think everyone I’ve spoken with, who was captive in one of these schools for the long program, has waking dreams and nightmares of being made captive again, and of having to fight the cultish insanity of the place in order to try to get out. I’ll send you an email and perhaps we can talk sometime.

    Von - Yes, it’s a Michelle from your group, I’ll pass on your email, if you’d like.

41. 41 On August 26th, 2008, Carrie said:

    Back 4 years ago I found a site and logged on there as “Cooked @ RMA” I worked there in the 80’s I needed to find work as a young married couple we had moved to Bonners Ferry, and got a house. Hubby and I some how thought it was a great place to live life and so why pay rent if you can buy your own home. However as things got worse I had to return to work in order to help out. Had I known then what I know now I would have never left my son’s in day-care / pre-school to work. After reading the Script I am wondering how in the world this was kept up year after year. RMA was running along very big in this area in 1987 - 1988 is when I started to work for the school, and it just got bigger and bigger. There is again another “school” on site they changed the name of what was “the farm” to Boulder Creek, then they built a new school way up the hill from where the “Ruby Ridge” shoot out the Fed.’s had with Randy Weaver. They called that North West then they did a “switch” and moved RMA up there and NW to the old RMA site. All the while “the farm” or “Boulder Creek” kept on being it’s own school. The YES it is closed (2005)is now again “Oh no!” and the whole operation is up and running again.

    However I wonder if they are still “doing all the stuff” they did??? Like I said if I knew then what I know now.

    When I worked there I worked hard, very hard, cooking meals on a huge set of wood cook stoves which is easy to say but very hard to do. Long after I was told… “you do not have a job” 1990 I learned the reason I was “fired?” was due to a student who was up-set over how another staff member was treating me, seems the student was yelling about it in a rap. I have also learned that many of the students who have been there in the years from 1990 on ended up way more broken or wounded then they would have been had they just been kicked out of the parents home. It seems to me we cannot trust some “school” to fix someone it is not like anyone is really broken we all have a hard time with the “growing up”.. I know I am having a hard time being an adult..

    And…..

    Someday when I grow up….

    In my world will it will be one where everyone can feel the real love that is all around each of us and never will a child be feeling bad or be beaten down.

    I have my own issues from the RMA thing. The people Mel and his wife had left in “charge” up in Bonners Ferry, did me wrong… Back then,

    Then when my kid just had turned 18 a student who was going to get out of RMA in a matter of weeks who was only 17 Called the cops and said he had touched her!!!! “The charge was Sexual with a 25 year jail time.”
    WE had to prove he was telling the truth sent him to all kinds of testing with Dr.’s and even a FBI lie detector test with a trip to Spokane for that. Well when the court saw the Dr. and report from the lie detector the charge was dropped to “simple assult”… So my issues are what they are.. I just have to remember that what comes around goes around in the world how it is today. I never wished a bad thing on another person. I really did care deeply for the well being of each student. I had no clue what all the things were that were going on. The Raps. The (I&Me) here forever all those things were just a list of more food needs in my edge of the school… I am so very sorry to each person who was hurt. Like I said I did not know…

    Now that I do know I feel terrible for each one..

42. 42 On August 26th, 2008, Jonny Possibly said:

    Hi Carrie!

    I was there when you were. (87-89) First off, I want to say that the kids who went to RMA instead of CEDU definitely lucked out, cause the food was pretty darn good. (Chicken curry was my favorite.) I don’t understand how you guys managed to make enough for 150-200 kids on a wood burning stove in just a few hours. Especially since all bread was made from scratch. I even remember the mixer. Even with seconds available, food ran out, and that was no fault of the kitchen staff, that was the ridiculous school administration which required that everything be as close to grizzly adams chic as possible.

    I also don’t understand why so many of the kids complained about the food. I always liked it.

    I worked in the woodshop when I was in challenge, instead of the kitchen, (88) but I think I remember you. Greg went on a wilderness trip for a week, so all of the woodshop kids moved over to the kitchen for that time. I was all grumbly about working in the kitchen, because I hated cooking and dishes. (Still do, you should see my house.) But I think you were the one who taught me how to crack an egg with one hand. (I’m pretty sure the person’s name started with a C or K.) I don’t remember what you look like, but I *do* remember that I was really jazzed at learning how to do that. (it’s the little things, sometimes.) I always jokingly answer if someone asks me “Did you learn ANYTHING beneficial at RMA?” I say “Yah. I learned how to crack an egg with one hand.” I can’t even crack one with two hands any more. I mess it up. :D

    One of the many things I really disliked about RMA was how the kitchen staff were regarded by the student body and faculty. There were several kids who preferred hanging out in the kitchen and talking to you guys, instead of hanging out with their “peers” or with staff. (and could you blame them?) These were the kids who were always looked down upon as losers, and would get yelled at in raps. And the criticism was SO transparent it was actually TRUE! They would say “You just want to be around people who don’t know you the way we do so they won’t judge you.” Well, uh… DUH! Who the heck wants to hang out with people who are going to be judgmental and critical and hurtful, huh? If everyone in the school looks at you as a loser, why on earth would you want to give them the time of day, anyway?

    But, really, my issue with this is how unbelievably classist it is. They are literally saying “Don’t socialize with the help.” It was disgusting. I bet there were kids there who would have loved to spend more time with people further removed from the program, just because these individuals acted like, oh, I dunno, normal people, but they didn’t, because they didn’t want to be looked down upon by everyone else in the school.

    I always really hated that.

    One kitchen staff who I remember fondly is Wendy. She could out arm-wrestle anyone in the school, and her and Lou were the only two staff I knew of who went through the propheet workshop program and it didn’t seem to affect them at all. I remember being shocked when someone told me while I was there. I remember thinking “She doesn’t act like she has experienced that at all.”

    I always wondered what her opinion was about all of that nonsense. She always seemed to me to be one of those uber still-waters type folks who have nothing to prove to anyone, and are just really secure with themselves. I don’t know how right I am on that, though, because it was a long time ago.

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